Populism and Cynthia Nixon (HoH Podcast – Ep, 20)

this is the our history podcast a world anytime anyplace from the hour of history studio in Philadelphia Pennsylvania your hour of history begins right now [Applause] hello and welcome to hour of history we're your host Steven bellman and the flyest feeling we are back in action it's been it's been a rough semester a little bit of a crash course in time management but we're making it happen and yes we have some important history to talk about yeah so you might have heard there's race happening right now for the governor in New York maybe this person you might know of andrew Cuomo and Cynthia Nixon better known as Myranda well I don't know her that way where do you know her ISM I mean you might have heard of a little show Sex in the City it was sort of like ve you know pop culture benchmark of the 2000s for a lot of people maybe maybe look at our first hate mail for this episode I made it through one half of one Sex in the City episode once and I couldn't I mean it's I remember only seeing it because it was on late at night on HBO and I was Stampley didn't had an HBO to like watch all the naughty shows I felt like I rated our movies as like a teenager's and my parents would let me watch like I'd stay up to watch like pulp fiction and sometimes Sex in the City would be on and like what else am I gonna do at 11 o'clock while I'm waiting for this movie so I watch Sex in the City and yeah but look back I'm like wow that show is nothing but just like Kari just like where's the man for me so where's the man for me why would I mean there's a mole there's a whole box of issues there but why should we even like why are we talking about sex in the city on the hour of history um well so Cynthia Nixon has I think it was like three weeks ago a month ago yeah announced her her you know her campaign to run for governor against Como which is a big deal because how long is como being governor now two terms two terms so he's been in there for a while he comes from a very old line democratic politics you know family his dad was dad's name Mario Mario Cuomo also was the governor back in what the seventies yeah so your presidential envisioned no so there's like and then didn't doesn't you know Andrew yeah I'm also gonna have like some like pseudo like highfalutin ambition so there's like so it's like a we representation of kind of like 2016 in miniature where you have an established democratic politician who's now being challenged by somebody on the left right Cynthia Nixon is running on a very we might think like quasi socialist Bernie ish you know platform and really pushing against Cobo and the thing is though there's no Trump that could like possibly destroy this this situation the way I like to think of it as sort of round to New York City Hillary versus Bernie because if you remember when Hillary and Bernie sort of butted heads in New York Bernie was holding these big rallies in Washington Square and there was a lot of arguments that it was these you know these new glass buildings in Brooklyn that one New York for Hillary it was a very close battle between sort of this establishment Democrat Hillary Hillary Clinton who had been you know in the party she had represented in New York as a senator versus this new progressive / populist Bernie Sanders and Bernie lost New York he did lose New York but the New York is like Hillary Clinton stomping grounds like that she was a senator wasn't she absolutely she is interesting because Cuomo gets his start as the HUD under Bill Clinton celsa woman is part of the Clinton family yeah it's part of that that nexus and and so I think it's important not just because it's like oh it's just some random governorship but I think it shows like a real big kind of the power dynamic in the Democratic Party right it shows the fault lines very clearly and ergo it's important to care about what's happening there great party if you care about America yeah so so I feel like this election in many ways almost dysfunction is a bellwether like an ideological bellwether for how the Democratic Party is going to function in the future especially going into 2018 and it's with the primary and there in the midterm sorry and then going into 2020 and also showing you know how is the Democratic establishment reconcile itself with its with and then how is also like the resurgent you know the left wing of the party gonna reconcile itself with with the establishment and for this reason I find New York interesting I also find New York interesting because I was a resident of New York for years one time he's on Brooklyn did yes I taught in Brooklyn and I lived in Brooklyn in fact last time Cuomo was up for re-election it was Cuomo versus effort teacher who's actually working on the Cynthia Nixon campaign now teach out a little background here teach out was sort of this upstart who was challenging Cuomo like playing a little more progressive than Cuomo she was playing more like that the Elizabeth Warren angle where like I'm a college professor he's old-time politics and I'm a smart hip like technocratic a person I'm not afraid of suing suing the bad guys and the problem with teacher was she won she couldn't win New York City so Cuomo still won New York City she won the counties just above New York up to Albany so like upstate from Yonkers to Albany and then she also lost upstate New York in upstate New Yorkers hate and so so I am and in full disclosure I voted for Teachout in the primary I think a Cuomo's you know good good man he's he has he's just your classic politician you know he's born into the business sort of thing and he's a politician's politician this is what sort of worried me so Cynthia Nixon announces her campaign she says she's working with Zephyr Teachout and all of her base is New York City like she's not gonna win over the people in Rochester and the people the people who hate Cuomo yeah it's what's also – I think New York well again it's also like in miniature like the political divide in the whole country right where the urban-rural divide is just that's what's that's what's destroying America but then if you look at New York like the urban-rural divide is incredible so it's also the problems of just the entire United States in miniature and yeah it's like you all these people that hate the establishment upstate but they don't want to necessarily go for the like what they would think of as like the hippie dippie Liberal candidate absolutely so what do you do about that and I couldn't see them like ever going for that sort of Kennedy but they don't really like Cuomo so some might possibly even go Republican depending on who who's put forth but then there's also the issue of New York City so like the people who are working at the banks and finance so but then you have all the all the folks in like Bushwick also you are you're there was a really interesting comment Nixon made like I've been so I've been following us with interest because you know sort of representative but Nixon said she said Democrats need to be led by African Americans and I thought well wait a second you're what she's very white it's it's weird to like the dynamic is like como yeah obviously comes from like an Italian background you know comes from like that like that more old-school like we came here as immigrants to New York and we like made our bones and it's like it's like I was like the Tammany Hall thing for like and now we run the show and then Cynthia Nixon right super super super liberal quasi socialist basically but she's also like an elite Manhattan you know she stars in Sex in the City which is also just all about like elite women in Manhattan she you know she's mean she's like you know like she's like never been to upstate New York I think she tweeted just a little while ago she's like went to upstate New York for the first time it was great yes upstate New York starts in it yes so she has like all of these energies that seem populist and she's using kind of that Bernie left wing populism but she's very bluntly that she's out of touch and there's a couple things we should talk about so one of the things I want to bring up is like a rhetoric verse action so one of the things Nixon's two of the things we can bring up that she's been very strong on our education and the subway now education New York State spends more per student than any state in the Union so I what are you criticizing inequality in the education that's why she's going for the base of like we need to talk about discrimination when you talk about racism we need to be equalizing this across all racial groups and then of course I mean I feel so that's good for her i i'm the Nixon bro right now and then but then as well she's also talking about the subway and like the subway in New York is crumbling it's like in real time exponentially like right yesterday did you read the news yes yeah they just the whole system collapse well they trust me it was absolutely yeah and it's funny because growing up out west I always thought of New York as like caught such an advanced city it has a big subway system and then you come out here like oh it's it's dying because no one's funding it because no one's because this well but this is also my main issue here so the subway to fix would cost billions and billions of dollars right and and everyone so that's a popular thing right this is just like Trump Trump said Newark sucks he said we need to fix the highways and so everyone's like yeah we do need infrastructure nothing's been done so far well because Trump will always say what people want to hear never back but now this is what Nixon is doing what she Simpson could I think we'll back it up if she can get well but this is what she said about the subway this was a red flag she said we built the Erie Canal we can fix the subways it shows clear that Erie Canal is is a you know that was a marvel of technology it was not about money it was about engineering how can we be well ok that's fair right if you break down the actual budget of like infrastructure that's where it gets hairy but I think a lot of bit like for Trump to yeah yeah but think about all the arguments though that are made by like people on like the more libertarian side of things what's like we shouldn't invest in infrastructure because these big government projects blah blah blah blah blah or like it's not possible for us to build these things and I think it's a popular left-wing thing to be like look at these crazy huge infrastructure projects we did if we have the will to do it we can do it right and they're sort of like this is the weird thing about New York too is that there's like the weird element of de Blasio and New York City in there yeah and but and Trump himself is from Queens yeah so basically the word if a New York politician is elected the world loses just just destroy the city why but anyway so versus Trump this since since this Trump election like and this is what's weird to about Nixon and the populist movement is like Trump is easy pickings but it's not Trump you have to criticize like de Blasio and Cuomo I have been on in truck and effort to out progressive each other like sort of but I feel I feel though if I look at Nixon look she's taking a very strong stand on saying we did legalize weed like did you see Cuomo did the same thing because it's great because she's totally pushing all of his buttons because she's running this insurgent campaign she has name recognition right she's indelibly associated with the city because of the show yeah you know I feel like they should make a personality test where you just personalities determined by a combination of like was it Carrie Miranda but so so she has that name recognition she has still like this kind of sheen or shine I'm like virtuosity because she hasn't been in politics before she seems like she's you know kind of a straight and narrow person no skeletons have come out of her closet yet and then she's running like all these platforms that are super popular with people like improve infrastructure legalize drugs you know like like fun really not like work on our school funding and it's just in in como you can see is like ashen-faced every time he has to talk about her because and then she's getting all these small donations like the Bernie model of getting campaign donations because komen of course is gonna get all the Wall Street big money donations in the party but she's running I think what it arguably be a very successful insurgent campaign okay so let's say you care does it mean people out-of-state sure they might think oh she's just like something they're not gonna vote they might know maybe but I don't know they might think like oh look at this dumb person from like Manhattan but if they like her policies no why wouldn't they vote here's what's gonna happen I think the I think upstate New York is so anti-nixon so anti Cuomo they're gonna put forth their own Canada you think like a right wingers gonna come in and sweep all no it's not a right winger they're gonna put forth their own Democratic candidate the the Cuomo will win again and should there be a like Pataki Pataki did the same thing and one INT won against Mario Cuomo right why but so like what's good about como though this is what I don't get is everyone's just like well Nixon has all these problems she's not gonna win but it's like well but what about Cuomo what does he got going for well okay so I mean like if call was that great why is he just doing the policies that Nixon is running on that is giving her so much energy from the get-go well this is exactly what corn was doing but he's only doing that cuz he's reacting no no no if you go back Cuomo made college free in CUNY and SUNY so like people under a certain financial level get free City University New York State University like Cuomo has been on he he started the sort of like what is it the research into legalizing weed for the whole state a year ago but like you don't need to do research you can just do it no hold like we need to do a big study it's like people have written books on this topic we know that legalization works you don't need to do a study on it you know and so this is a great example so this is politics as usual decide I'm sort of explaining and Mathias is putting forth this this new like just do it but here's the thing you can't just do it in your why because the New York house is Republican the New York Senate might turn Republican and do you think any Republican is going to work with quasi Socialists Cynthia think of Nixon no no but be it's a screw them right wait I don't know then nothing will get to Cuomo has struggled to get every year Cuomo struggles to get the the spending bill you know through the budget and and he's like tied to all these Paul dishes like he's in the political game and he can barely get a budget passed you throw someone up there who's never been in the game I think it's gonna be a disaster and let me throw this but that's just an argument for stasis like that like this is a problem where it's like like Oh like almost trying to do this thing but it's not working so we can't disrupt the balance because it might be worse but it's like so really we're all we're saying is like things are so bad the only reason we should vote for this person is because it might potentially get worse but things are already bad like things are already like as bad as they could get we have Trump and all the countries like we have an opioid crisis that's like killing thousands of people in India and what but if you watch like Lincoln are like our life expectancy has gone down two years in a row in the United States and our infrastructure is crumbling like well let's just go for let's just go for it is my my point cuz like what do we have to lose at this point right both but we don't have anything to lose both de Blasio and Cuomo I've been criticizing Trump from day one Cuomo was the number one critic on the handling of Puerto Rico every single day he made a tweet about Puerto Rico not having power every single day now I haven't heard Cynthia Nixon mentioned Puerto Rico there's a huge population for Daniel's in New York and that sort of thing is gonna win Colombo the election if Cynthia Nixon can't tap into this sort of like you know this divisive school situation or whatever she's not gonna win I also well I don't think your chances are very good anyway but but I worry about this sort of like we need to change fast the whole framework of the United States the way our system works is to change slow if you want to change fast join the Chinese Communist Party where it's a dictatorship and they can pass any bill they want I mean this is like a BS like conservative argument like you know like I mean I just think that the problem is that Democrats are trying to play it safe and that's what costs in the election to Trump and that's why like Bernie Sanders he went down I think the Mississippi this was a couple weeks okay dude you read about this I know I tell me so a couple weeks ago he goes down to Mississippi he's giving the speech and he comes out pretty like you have some strong criticism of the Democrat party like a classic Bernie thing like attacking the Democrats from the left he says look Democrats are always up in arms right now about like how the election was stolen from us blah blah blah blah yeah but he's like but if you look at like and there's no self interrogation of like what have we done wrong right and what can we do better it wasn't Clinton's book but like but so Bernie like had this line where he said you know we elected Obama and he was a really charismatic you know candidate but look at how many seats we've lost under Obama and you know like he said like basically yeah we elected Obama and then Democrats have like lost like positions across the board and he was saying like don't let the fact that you elected Obama somehow make you think that Democrats have been doing good the last 10 years he's oh he's trying to say we've actually done terrible and so I think he was trying to push against this like don't be seduced by the like the self-congratulatory fact that so many Democrats have that oh we elected you know Barack Obama so we're doing awesome it's like well then why Democrats lost like how many seats you cut like like like state county federal level it's it's it's been a bloodbath but see what people are kind of like taking for granted is that trumps in office right now Trump is gonna explode at some point we don't know when it's going to be but but like he said he's not gonna he's not gonna like so yes Trump won the election and he's doing all kinds of things but but is that really the game the Democratic Party wants to play like this is this is a very short game right well no but the thing is again I would say but this is also like like Obama's like just a middle-of-the-road and be conciliatory look what's happened like it's been a wipeout of Democrats across the board Trump is in office and like his legacy is gonna get wiped out like you know it's gonna be destroyed right and so what did that gain and you we're talking you're saying like oh it's a short-term thing sure right you don't want to blow up your house to kill like like a rat infestation or something you want to somehow fix it you know like you want to fix the problem with retaining the integrity of the state yeah right I know there's that argument it's like if Democrats go too far left they go too extreme they play it too fast and loose if they start playing fire with fire you know they go down to the the basing level of Trump or whatnot and in the right wing that they're gonna end up blowing up the house fair but I would also say it's like well if you don't do anything the house is gonna collapse anyways because you're not doing anything to fix the infestation okay okay so here's my okay right because like look it's like Mitch McConnell the Republicans have won by being so intransigent and they played hardball and I think personally it's time for the Democrats to start playing left wing hardball and there's populist energy if you look at the pop of this energy Bernie had it is wasted the Democratic Party does mean wasted that and the populist energy fades when you don't get anything done look let me take let me take but let's then take over state houses like the problem is also the way the Democrats fund right the Democrats like the d-triple-c need triple six mafia which I'm stealing from chaplet Trap House I think it's hilarious a phrase right like they have such a centralized power over who gets funding who doesn't who are they gonna help who they're not gonna help and it's just turn the party into this like total like incestuous Tammany Hall thing where like like calm oh where it's like it's dynastic right he knows the Clintons the Clintons that know everybody his dad was also governor for three terms and so it's just become this like thing where it's like this just love fest where you just get in with with like the party and you're with them forever and then you can never criticize the party because then you'll never get any funding it so just become stagnant but and so como can always go out there and say like I'm actually progressive and claim blah blah blah blah blah and then nothing happens because he's also not willing to play hardball with with the Republicans but first of all things have happened in America is dynastic we can you can look at the bushes the Clintons whatever that's bad I think it's that it's not like it's it wasn't bad when Roosevelt was three turns I mean there's a reason we passed the amendment to stop people from getting you know over to terms like we reckon that in principle you know sure we've always had dynasties but that doesn't mean dynasties are good the norm is not good well I don't know sometimes the norm is good no let's let's take California as an example okay California elects oh well first okay California is sort of this like a good example like New York what's gonna happen in the world California experimented with this guy this actor who had no experience Ronald Reagan eventually became president California also experimented with another actor after gray Davis had been governor for how many years California recalled him and put Swardson eager in in Sacramento and California thought okay Swartz a nigger this guy who's gonna flip politics upside down he doesn't have experience but he's going to lead California Marsha mayor couldn't get anything done in in soon the California establishment he destroyed the Republican Party in California basically because he could get nothing done and so what happened the California goes back to Jerry Brown who had been he's now I mean he'd been the one of the youngest California governor's now he's one of the oldest California governs you know why because California was tired of Schwarzenegger an actor not being able to do anything they'd rather have an old Democrat who had you know who might not do a whole lot but they also look at like but also it's because the Democrats in California for all of their quote unquote liberal social policies have basically like recreated like feudalism man like come on like like California is one of the most unequal states in the in the country and they have and then you look at their tax policy you look at like their zoning laws you look at like just just across the board the wealth distribution is horrible and this is why the problem the Democratic Party is it's like made this devil's bargain of like we are nominally going to support left-wing aka like liberal because the United States is like political categories are all screwed up right where I support these like liberal social policies but those social policies are only allowed to pass through the devil's bargain of then allowing Republicans or making an alliance with Republicans to get votes that will enact like horrible economic policies this is why Uniqua this is why we have gay marriage but the Equality is like the highest it's ever been in the country okay so a couple things first of all I should point out California senators are both New Yorkers boxer and Feinstein not in New York these are just get out of here second there get out of here round zero ground zero political chaos oh I know I didn't mean it that way anyway they don't wasn't a joke he didn't mean it anybody but on top of that we also have this sort of you know I can't think we also have so the Republican Party was decimated in California right it never really recovered so the opposition was essentially destroyed what happens is if you don't have these like boring establishment parties they can't continue what is the Republican Party gonna look like after Trump either a dies or B bull bleep but I think that's the point though is that all of these part all of the parties are ossified in crumbling wee-bey all of the the Republican like the prevailing party could not have had Trump basically turn into a personality cult in a year if it wasn't incredibly weak right right like I think trot like it's funny and people say the Republicans are powerful like no the fact the party is so awesome I'd it's so party line that they have no dynamism they have no people going into it and so it just it crumbled under an attack by Trump and then the Democrats also are ossified I mean I can debates with us all the time with like another friend of mine they're like we we have a tear intok recei right now in the united states so you know during the soviet union we like most of the smart opinion on soviet union now looking back only the Brezhnev era is like the problem is that they had too many old people at the top and then they had a problem in a crisis of like legitimacy and secession because then they all died and that's how Gorbachev gotten the power just because he was the youngest guy they had no dynamism the thing it just ossified and collapsed and that's what's happening with our party system all of our major leaders in both parties are in their 70s are their 80s I hope we're gonna be dead in 10 to 15 years all of them so it's crazy to me now people are like oh Paul Ryan's retiring so Nancy Pelosi and it's like no magic died tomorrow like like like why put old people into power when they're gonna be dead in just a few years and then we're just gonna have a legitimacy crisis in who's gonna come to power well because our country's built on money and they have a lot of debts with it this is why you need to get rid of money man this is why citizens united was the worst decision ever yeah well so then let me ask you we didn't get big money out of them were it not for money would this no experience Cynthia Nixon be in running for well she okay so she's independently wealthy but also because she was an actress okay but also he's not taking big money donations she's doing small she's rich but fair but look man like but she's doing it the Bernie Model Bernie Brooklyn College alumni Bernie Sanders himself had been a senator for how many years decades but he had always yes true but he he had always been like on the outskirts right I mean he was an independent I'm still making quarter million dollars a year well then the argument should be that we should make sure that they don't get paid that much like I'm totally in favor of lowering how much senators and congressmen will gain I mean but if they could get paid Trump gets paid nothing right he's getting like I think it's just a problem is that the argument well we just need to go with como because I feel like the only thing that the thing about Pablo is that he's not a Republican right that season mean to be like the bottom line people make is like if we don't support him we're gonna get a Republican but I'm just like but that's not good enough anymore like no no well i it's certainly not good i and i i apologize if you live in new york state I mean Cuomo basically like he was the architect of the subprime mortgage yeah and that's one that's where it's like yes where you're saying so this is when you say like oh he's a progressive no he's not he's not a progressive because he backs these crazy economic policies so many Democrats have done the song and dance of like I support gay marriage ergo you can't criticize me on anything I do because I support like you know this is citizen no she's not doing that she's also doing more economic platforms she's doing the more dynamic thing of saying like let's support these people but let's also like get some real-world economic policies I don't know I haven't seen any economic policies from her I've seen a lot of words but no policies suggested legalize drugs right look that's a great economic policy and that will that will not be a political solution for any of these parties and the bigger issue really the bigger issue that we have to get to is people are mad so we don't have coamo right and so if we're New Yorkers and everyone I've never talked to a New Yorker who said I like Cuomo exactly also I also haven't talked to New Yorker who said Oh Cynthia Nixon she's gonna change our state I mean I'm sure we're gonna Bushwick no oh oh yeah you can find anything in Bushwick yeah I just I think I think Nixon is tapping into the same energy and basically the same demographic that Bernie was right and I think the problem with the Democrats is they need to tap into that demographic because Bernie had a ton of energy he had so much populist energy going for him and Democrats all I've done is criticize him by saying oh he's and he doesn't have solidarity with the party he criticized Hillary Clinton how dare he criticize Obama how dare he you know but and they don't pay attention to like what was driving his popularity in the first place absolutely and that's a problem with a party but what it can energy beat money is my question for you hey I think it had well I believe it can or at least we should we should try and help energy beat money because if we don't we're just gonna end up in like a no ligardi but I guess we already are but we're gonna end up in a situation where it's just gonna be the you know ultra rich family clans which like Clinton in America I know but like we need to change it otherwise we're like maybe you've always been cases of rich people running things sure but it's getting exasperated and worse where there's no pretense anymore there's no more welfare state it's all being destroyed where it's just gonna be power competitions between you know the top 1% political dynasties these are all the GAR kekulé political clans that at the end of the day have more in common with each other than difference because they're all agreed on maintaining economic policies to make sure that they keep making money right but this is where and this is where Trump was begin Trump in front the thing too is again I think Democrats are ignoring how did Trump get all these people who vote for him regardless of all kinds of shady Russian stuff regardless of the electoral college being screwed up so yeah Hillary go out in more votes but you still have to pay attention like tens of millions to go bloated for this guy all right and this is where I would sort of dissonant lycée you can't totally reduce it to like they're all just evil racist white people sure plenty of those voters were but that can't that's not the be-all end-all of his energy a lot of it was he was proposing things that people want laying right things that really aren't that different from maybe stuff the Bernie was it's like yeah let's get big money on politics even though he's like the worst person to advocate for all these things he's never gonna actually follow through and they'd be like yeah there was a swamp in Washington yeah we do need to invest in our infrastructure yeah maybe liberal capitalist free trade isn't everything it's cracked up to be you know and he but he's so he's some of his policies I look at I'm like sure but he's like the worst possible individual because he's just cynically using those to like boost himself as a little girl well this is sort of the place that the Italians have found themselves in now they don't have a government they're still trying to form a government but they have the five star party which is sort of the left-wing talking to Malika Nord which is a right-wing populist so it's almost like is a more exaggerated version of Trump and Bernie but they're thinking of forming a government together well because if if like mainstream self-described liberal parties can't get things done if they can't actually pass real economic policies which are the purpose of a nation-state which is to ensure rights for your citizens if a liberal party can't do that then yeah right wing left wing parties are eventually going to get fed up with it it's terrifying because that could lead to fascism but it's understandable because liberal politicians are like what we might think of globally as central politicians where our doing anything because they're being corrupted by money and their own stagnation right but this is exactly the problem with the world is is the business this is how the system is that's why I like so we go band we're so entrenched in this system this is you know this doesn't have to be though it has its roots in empire and you know sure but like though there was a moment after World War two when there was like a Liberal Democratic consensus and there was like institutions were built yeah why was Africa was still all colonized a China was not yet developed India was still just getting its independence now that we have the mass population India and China three billion people they lead the world now and we have to come to terms with that so I think there might be a radical reimagining of our systems that's the only thing that's going to work like and people are gonna have to end and so I think one of the biggest problems is people are angry because people can't live the way people were promised to live so there's money for it though we have the money for me we do how much money is in tax havens how much money is sconce towei in like like dark money pockets like when Sokka won't say caphis cos go or however you pronounce it uh-huh what there's only one tactic there's tens of trillions of dollars that are basically hidden away by the old for rich and also our beloved Chinese like Communist Party you'll eat like they don't give a shit about people well there's over 800 billionaires in China just take that into your brain 800 billionaires yeah but I but billionaires have more solidarity with other billionaires like we so like you're saying like oh people need to say like they need to just like bite the austerity bullet but it's like no they don't because we have the money the problem is not the money the problem is not the resources the problem is the political system that distributes those reasons well don't understand me I think people need to start acting differently we have to really consider the way that we consume oh yeah I don't I don't here this is what alarms me about both Cuomo's and Nixon's none of them are bringing to the table like the well the New York's gonna be underwater exec 50 years New York City under bark why do people keep moving to New York why why no one's talked about the Russians buying up man or the Chinese buying yeah yeah no and no one no one's afraid everyone everyone is afraid Bernie didn't even talk about those kind of things because that's suicide well you're seeing his racist but also I mean Trump maybe vaguely by talking about like like trade policies and he's like the like I said this inferior thing about Trump is some of his policies or some of the things he claims the support I'm actually okay with it's just that he's he's insane and it's just other oligarchs utilizing him to you know seduce people right but but so that's what that's what I'm kind of after is like there there are real problems for the whole earth like if you look at things like like the Paris agreement and pollution like it took the world so long to get India and China on board then collusion in there so long because they were saying you know the whole argument look during colonial times you were creating all the pollution give us a chance to do it and then they realized wow it sucks to live in a place where the air is yeah yeah and then so there are leading and now China and India are leading the anti-pollution movement and now we're not on board let's be a bit but so what's your critique I was like you have to reimagine society like we're not we're not thinking even on this on the right level like we need to so I lost the little tiny thing that goes on the ear bug you know get the little ear rapper that goes on this so it's central to putting the ear like plastic the little plastic thing that goes on your me and there is there is like a plastic trash heap three times the size of France swirling around the middle of the Pacific Ocean exactly but this is again we can do this we just need to generate we have to need to destroy the structures that are creating inequality we need to loosen up that money get it flowing back into nation-states maybe promote sovereignty for nation-states so they can actually confront their own problems we need to then start we then need to start radically changing our consumption ergo let's invest massively in solar energy and wind power and and in generating power from from like like water and it like hydrology and let's get renewable energy booming let's get ourselves off fossil fuel but now you're starting to sound like a centrist that's not a centrist policy though it's not yeah that's like that's not a centrist policy man yeah nobody like no centrist politician is saying that well they're saying like the slow rollout first that's not a slow roll I'm saying we need to do this flank and then we just do in the corners well you could do if you create enough can revenue through rural energy universal basic income and this is you can do it there is any there's enough money to make it happen there is more than enough money to ensure food and shelter and not just like we're not talking even just baseline there's enough money out there to ensure a good life for everybody on the planet but what you're suggesting technologies that can make life better for everybody we have the power we have the money I know but what you're suggesting is sharing which we've as humans as a species and found sea or nightly difficult to do see I just yeah but I don't buy the idea that that quote-unquote human nature will always preclude against these political solutions that are gonna be based on more egalitarian measures I'm not saying human nature I'm just saying people with money are so I was always anti first class until I got upgraded and then I said screw the people in coach see this is where I'm where radical let's just get rid of first class on planes all together what yeah have you read it in first class no no that's why you want to get rid of it I don't even wants to leave let's consume with ice let's put you on first class transatlantic one flight and let's see what we say I make it work or maybe we should nationalize our Airlines again so we don't have these like airlines treating their customers like cattle and then we wouldn't be Lu guys like do apply across country of Airlines or national I mean I can't afford to fly across country right now anyway anyone can pay $200 on Spirit Airlines it's not you that's $200 to go across it is I've done it before on Philly to LA non-stop because you're going to LA imagine 200 bucks to try and go you can't do a Boise yeah it's urbanization man it's the centralization parks around cities sure to LA but what about people that don't live in LA well this is the problem what about them in our modern this is what no value of Harare has called the useless class yeah because that's what's happening isn't it this is what's had this is like what Silicon Valley right we can see in San Francisco the dystopian future right now is that you're gonna have the ultra-wealthy we have who have all the technology and they will have generated the economy so much and automated it so much and digitized the economy so much that there won't be jobs for anybody but they're never going to create an economic system that ensures then that some kind of capital will be guaranteed to everybody so you'll just have the ultra-wealthy hanging out of their mansions and then everyone's gonna be homeless in the street because they don't have any of it right it's just gonna be futile ISM all over again even worse than feudalism this is gonna be no social contract yeah but since our politicians if anyone watches Facebook and Zuckerberg questioning our politicians don't understand how technology all in their 70s and 80s because they're all jeer because we're living to gerontocracy Steve this is like like and again this is why we can debate like these huge global or shattering problems but again it goes back to that's why you vote for Nixon in a coma because KOMO just represents the same repetition of this old staid you know dynastic system in the Democratic Party that actually isn't gonna change anything and demonstrative Lee hasn't changed anything answer me that if we're desperate first stuff I'd rather go down I'm voting for somebody who actually is proposing real changes who's actually saying let's just do the damn thing and not have a committee for a year to decide on in your study of history what's gone better radical changes or stability I mean I don't know I think it's a false dichotomy because so-called countries that always focused on stability collapsed after a long time we've tried to say that we put it around for a long time I think that you do need moments where you do need to do radical change or the system is gonna collapse I think we're in that moment if we don't do something now you'd the argument of stability is just an argument for you know just keep biting the bullet and it's an argument that thing you can't imagine a better future so just accept it well but here's the thing things are changing so fast that any sort of planning you know like but the thing is what's radical about legalizing drugs well let's just what's radical she's not be able to pass that in a republican-controlled House this is why we need but like so oblige so not only would we need Cynthia Nixon we would need a radical reimagining of how we just go out among the people voting for legalizing at least weed is insanely popular across the board a regardless of political affiliation numerous studies have shown that like a vast majority American population is totally on board with legalizing weed or at the very least decriminalize okay so so why don't we go to the people and talk to them and rather than doing this like stupid like oh well this is a Republican district so we're not going to talk to them because they'll never vote for us why don't we just go as some say like a Democrat just be like here's my position and I'm gonna do this policy do you support this policy or not and then okay so New York like Massachusetts then we legalized weed and you know they it'll take them like four or five years to figure out how to tax weed companies meanwhile well you see what's looking morning forever or what's happening in in Colorado just look at policies that working what about so Colorado yeah great everyone in Colorado is having a good time someone on the Rockies the Rockies accidentally made the front page of their opening day pamphlet the Phillies stadium so someone's having fun in Colorado but the problem with Dyess is okay so then then we get all our weed from where the cartels in Mexico so the people in Mexico suffer because of this giant drug business so Americans can get high that's not cool no no no no that's what's happening now if we legalize weed we grow ourselves and then we don't have to have a drug trading you think we're gonna be self-sufficient and so yeah be self-sufficient in anything no because we've gotten so complacent let's I mean I'm down for like reasserting American self-sufficiency in terms of like our consumption I'm totally okay I'm bored with Wallace II I think that's where the change has to be not with the legalization record i me about sales like you have to because look at like policies that have affected black people in this country they have been the number one victims of the drug war right just like incarceration out the wazoo you know I mean the number one American victims American Afghans you know yeah but that's all of it because it's illegal like let's like all the problems you're talking about drugs are only the problem because it's illegal in the first place make it legal and then you can actually address these problems head-on if you always keep these substances illegal the problems will always be in the black market and you can never solve it you can never actually do anything about if one thing we've learned there's always gonna be a leg market I mean but for what right so you legalize every because I mean I may be more kind of like a libertarian in that sense not so much in like the stupid like coke brand which is just an argument for oligarchy but in terms of like look let's legalize most drugs let's legalize prostitution with legalized gambling and I think that would alleviate a lot of problems are we gonna be self-sufficient and prostitutes as well are those going to be imported from other countries I mean I think we'd be self-sufficient or we just make laws that say like don't you know we're not gonna last sex traffic this is what's the problem with the the problem is you're saying is just like what we shouldn't allow anything like like have no what I have no policy because people always do back what I'm saying we can't like I'm not saying that these policies will get rid of all problems but they'll get rid of big things that are associated with these problems what I'm saying is that a lot of these policies are quick fixes for the United States but then once the issue is globally exported we have well then the United States should advocate for legalizing drugs or at least weed across NAFTA across North America across South America let's do it let's get talk to other countries yeah and let's start helping in I mean like you're saying like oh it's gonna hurt the Mexicans yes it is but let's then like do something to try and invest in Mexico right if the cartels don't have their economic base where are they gonna work what well then we can try I don't know what's gonna happen to them we but we can actually start to like make policies that undermine their power to undermine their economic you know I think I think a lot of your you know I agree with you and then we can maybe help to like invest in Mexico to help Mexico become more stable and so then you don't have people basically fleeing the country to the US like a better economic future I know and meanwhile admirable and sensible and everything you say makes sense nothing in history has taught us that America would ever help Mexico but see like I just I don't give a shit about what's our history at this point right even though even though we're the hour of history I'm saying Steve you're making history sound like this sort of like inevitability thing right like well what's happened before inevitably means that that we have to defend account when we look in the future I'm looking at history as the history to me shows that things are spontaneous there is a kind of energy things can happen that we you don't expect you can actually change things history shows you that there's a radical kind of agency in contingency to my mind sure we've always treated Mexico horribly oh and be holy always from the beginning but guess what that doesn't have to be that way right just because history has shown that we've always have doesn't mean that we always will okay I agree no I think it's a hopeful message and I hope our listeners pick up oh yeah this is why I'm more on the side of Nixon just more like I'm reading a back man it's always coming back is like because the energy right like sure maybe she's a she's a Kehoe dick candidate sure maybe she's not perfect sure she's like any leak Manhattanite but at least she's like saying some more dynamic positions and these she's talking about like these issues in a way that maybe Komal is like well I made a commission to study this issue it's like no she's actually just coming on saying like let's just do it if let's just legalize well MA has taught us anything it's that politicians can say whatever they want they're gonna do something else but that's why koma sucks that's why you shouldn't vote for politicians but this is why you're basically saying like well they all suck so just vote for the same sucky person no I say the change has to happen from the person who who would you vote for I say no I say you each have to make a conscious and who would you vote for viewer and if I was in New York um I don't know I I would look for another candidate really ya know I love the disrupt vote I never so you did you were just fine then I'm making an argument for Jill Stein I mean well okay yeah everyone who votes the disrupt vote is irrelevant until we lose Hillary Clinton the election right yeah yeah all right so I think I think we've reached you know which I think was like sort of a point of like don't do that don't do that so under well but then that's a point for stability in centrism yeah which is also a Hillary sucked but she she she sucked less that's why that 2016 will be endlessly legislated because let's be on there both were crappy candidates like I hate the Clinton fandom is so so god awfully annoying it's just that rumpus it's just the Trump is worse Trump is worse that doesn't mean that she's good that's why I voted for the presidential election because she's just better let's intro let's and that's a low bar to clear cuz she was she represented the status quo but the status quo in America is horrible it's horrible I'm it's hard well for whom it's horrible for black people it's horrible for queer people it's horrible for poor people and increasingly it's horrible for everyone who's not part of like the top ten or twenty percent wealth bracket it's horrible for all the people around the world who've been invaded by us it's horrible for our people in the Middle East see I don't buy into this Jeremias these are the worst these are let's shut down some of our bases why don't we have dozens of military bases let's show them these these are has been half our tax dollars on the military what's up with these are some of the greatest times for humanity these are some of the best time some of the times in which people have the most opportunities like that I don't buy that it's the worst time I know it's not the worst time those argument it's not the worst time but if we don't do something it's gonna get rapidly bad for a lot of people the problem rights okay sure there's all these theorists that say actually global poverty is like the low sits out a bit sure but the way they're measuring global poverty it's it's like such a low baseline to clear it's like okay sure like these these people aren't like starving you don't have smallpox okay that's great yes and I'm not a nanny I know okay I don't want to be sound like I don't want to sound like blithe about like that is demonstrably awesome and that is the mob stably an amazing thing that humanity has accomplished I think the problem what's happening though is we're like measuring sort of equality downwards right where we're pushing the bar ever lower to where the point where we'll just point to like people in America will say well at least you're not starving so how dare you complain about inequality and then that's also how much upward mobility are these people who now are like half so like like people someone in like India right where we're seeing massive cuts in poverty so someone who's no longer absolutely impoverished in India how much mobility are they gonna have in the future I think what America is showing is that you can hit a certain baseline of equality and then it will never change right then you'll just have everyone be squashed down to this bare level of existence we're sure maybe we'll have a future where there is like where no one is a different more in quote-unquote absolute poverty but that just means we're all gonna be eating like beans and like living and like like tiny hovels or something like sure we're not starving and we're not gonna be worrying about the Black Plague and but then we'll have like this tiny percentage of people living in like space mansions or something like like that's the future like so the way if we talk about inequality the way you do if we talk about it as like well global poverty is the lows has ever been so ergo we live in the greatest time in history it's like sure but only if you're looking at it through this lens of like well what about the future what's gonna happen to upward mobility what's gonna happen to all this wealth is being generated but see I've already could be even less if you freed up all the capital that's in these tax havens but see I think you're also measuring human beings entirely wrong and this is part of the problem as you're saying in the future we just need to reimagine how wealth is distributed and then things will be better but that's also not the case the case has never been wealth I know I mean this is what Americans should understand more than ever we're better off than anyone else in the world and yet we have people who are willingly addicted you know know now that we have one of the worst levels of inequality in the world I don't know we're still if you are really we are the wealthiest country but we have one of the viewers like inequality divides the world but still if you're born in one of the poorest families in the United States you're a billion times off better than if you're born one of the poorest families in India China which more likely more people are born in India and China but that's assuming it's gonna stay static things are getting worse than Amir let me finish exponentially focus again is totally on Finance I'm totally on money and this is my own can't get you your notes but this is not the point of humanity and so people we've lost touch with actually how people are happy that's the problem what Bhutan is the Kingdom that's all I think you are always measuring GNP girls okay sure sure sure sure I'm sure like down serial things can't totally buy you happiness but like what's your vision just like be be satisfied with like our health care system is being gutted right like why why because we let people things like you know like it's like 0yr chips and beer so both kill us indefinitely yeah but that's happier yeah but you're sort of making this argument of like I'm not talking about chips if you're I'm saying that like my arguments more right I'm saying you should be able to eat as much chips and beer you want and when you get sick you still should have a right to go to the hospital and be treated and not going to bankrupt nonsense we shouldn't let people eat chips and beer no I think you should I think we should absolutely I mean I personally won't but I think people should we have the money to guarantee people free health care see this is this is that you're making an argument of like like make sure that everyone's just like a Buddhist monk who's happy and this is our this sure maybe they're like sure maybe that's a lot of people maybe that's some people's version of happiness but like you can't just tell people like don't complain about your material conditions because money will never buy you happiness but this is my big problem because how do you measure happiness what makes people happy and also what do you mean by material stuff right like it's not just like you're making this case of like well it's always on the individual and I do believe right like personal sponsibility plays a big part but then look at what these huge corporations are doing think about the advertising think about food desert cities that's been about how Big Pharma has pushed these like opioids I amazing I agree with you I agree with you entirely but I think as long as we're transfer India is not always gonna stay the same what happens if you start getting mad major oligarchs major pharmaceutical opioids in India yeah I mean the opium wars in China has already been done but okay less than I do when most of China was addicted to opioids but not in the medicine pharmaceutical term but did freakin opium but let me know let's um take a step back for a second and think the way we're imagining this around finance around our well-being being having the ability to consume as much or whatever we want and be fixed with it once we destroy our own bodies we need to teach people how to take care of themselves and what really matters that's true but I can't I don't want to be like a technocratic saying like we have to ban soda or something I'm not gonna do that New York did it but and it were under Como under de Blasio how did that was that good for his popularity there were some like memes on the internet and now everyone's over it Philly just did it and and now I mean nanny ID I use a nanny state and I'm against that idea like my thing is we have the money we have the resources where we can generate an economy based on sustainable energy where we can reduce poverty more than I already is being reduced we can ensure stable clean housing for people this is I'm not talking you maybe this is you're making it sound like I'm advocating for like hedonism for everyone I'm not I'm advocating for like just basic like we have the resources to give everybody not just the United States but globally if we really wanted we have the money we have an energy to do it we can create a sustainable energy infrastructure that can do that we can create clean fast public transportation we can create a system where basically we can guarantee people a steady amount of like income or hell we could get to a system where maybe income doesn't even exist anymore like if we get these technologies off the ground now that's another question saying yours is what you just said almost almost I mean it didn't take 40 minutes but it's almost the same as what Fidel Castro said when he said history will absolve me in 1955 he made these same arguments about Cuba but then he killed gay people gabbi's they were counter-revolutionaries how are they care of Ellucian like I'm not I'm not saying history is and what I'm not advocating for killing people no no he never advocated for killing people he advocated were the same as those sort of things redistributing wealth no there's more politics behind that and that doesn't see you're over here saying like all centrism and stability and then you're like then you're like all that chemistry no I'm just trolling I know I know you are and I'm like it's not good trolling Steve because like Castro totally was on board with killing people no no no no you but no but I said read his speech in 1955 he comes to power in 1959 and the reality's change of keeping power that's when he starts killing people also he didn't have solar energy nobody but a lot of his arguments were about there were so much sugar in Cuba so much tobacco so much wealth and him and also if you look at the economic bloc has the United States still perpetuates on Cuba exactly so I would say that like all the bad things in Cuba Castro has had obviously the most overwhelming effect but there are other extreme you know the phosphate happens right I'm not sure he comes to power yeah that the killing is not as quick as the blockade sure okay but still let's just get some solar energy go and in legalize drugs come on and I don't think these solutions will work but I admire your what else is the solution I say there are no solution has anyone again so you're making an argument for just like stage like stasis but that if we just say stasis the world is gonna be destroyed by climate change and by war and we're all gonna end up living in like like like a feudal dystopia soon like if not us our children or our grandchildren well that's also yeah okay are you sure making an argument like well don't do anything because there's nothing you can do but it's like the history shows that like history is nothing but people doing things I said that the system has to be radically reimagined it's because if we're entrenched in yeah I'm the one over here saying what we should be imagining you're just so you're nobody's like well we need to be radical and imagine new things no do you think people on like the left are doing right no what I'm saying is it starts with consumption what I do you should do something to get rid of plastic and find some other sustain like some other biodegradable son never forget Mathias one of the first University events I went to was the DRI the development Research Institute at NYU they talked all these guys in suits at NYU get together you know some of the world's foremost economists to talk about poverty in Africa and they drink the finest privation they eat the best cheese in the East what Larry Summers is like practice what you preach so that's very good what you're saying with ice I don't ever want to see you with a paper cup from a coffee shop again you should have a mug it starts with us that's but like you're making an argument that like we should all just become like Buddhist mug no I'm saying we should all do our best I mean I have a vegetarian I know so I'm trying over here and I that is the biggest thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint flying I think it's even bigger now it's true but but consistent something you can do every day for the rest of your life absolutely doughy meat I agree don't eat meat stop buying paper cups and no matter how much you like your coffee in a paper cup bring every usable mug yeah I mean those are small things sure but you're making but like most of the energy that is wasted is not done by into it's like lights left on in buildings it's by big companies running stuff you're making this argument of like these tiny individual choices we make will affect change I'm talking about like but what about the system in which we are forced to make this choice between cups and this I'm talking about systemic changes well but let's change not let's not go around and tell individuals Oh act differently I want to say let's change the system that forces individuals to act the way they do why don't we live in a society where people are always buying things on the go why don't we live in a society where plastic is so plentiful let's not just go around telling people reduce your consumption sure tell that but we need to ask bigger questions about like why is the system the way it is in the first place let's change that right and that's what we do every day as historians and we teach about some of how these systems have come into place I know next semester I'm teaching confronting Empire you know in which we sort of lay down the roots of how these systems are built so we can change them absolutely I two of them an optimist and uh I thank you with eius for being good to us and being optimistic I thank you for Cynthia Nixon listen is the story for individual responsibility comes down to you voting vote and now he's advocating individual responsibility well I'm trying to bridge water bring bridges over here Steve all right I think a spread our podcast that's another individual change you can make to make the work if you are in New Yorker and you want to recap you wanna we want to make the economy so abstract that everyone is gonna make a living by their own podcast everyone's gonna make that my pastor he's gonna listen to everyone just gonna be getting knowledge from each other it's gonna be you know the new podcast economy awesome I'm on board with that so with that have a good one guys now are listening hopefully we didn't piss anyone off too much our world without Cynthia Nixon anytime anywhere any place place you

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